Shao Feng talks with Vitalik ensorption full text: from hardware security, AI simplify to antiquator encryption, redefine the boundaries and future of the Taifeng
Xiaofu:My friends, welcome to the second conversation with Vitalik, which we had last year. Vitalik would like to say hello
Vitalik Buterin:Hello, everyone
Xiaofu:All right, everybody
There was actually just a discussion about the combination of smart hardware and block chains before we came up. I also know that in recent weeks Vitalik has seen a lot of companies and entrepreneurs involved in chip, smart hardware manufacturing. And I'm curious to hear about this: Why are you suddenly so interested in smart hardware and chips at this point? What kind of interaction do you have with Ether's? I'd like you to talk about this first。
Vitalik Buterin:We've been thinking a lot lately, except for Full Stack open source security. Fullback refers to each layer of application, including the application layer - if it is a website, the browser is a layer, the operating system is a layer, the hardware is a layer, so there are many different layers。
If no layer is safe, then the system is not safe. We have been talking about doing something safe that does not require central trust, but if we really want to do this, we need to look at every level。
I SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY THEY OWN ETH. SO, HOW DO YOU GUARANTEE YOUR ETH SAFETY? THE FIRST IS YOUR WALLET; THE SECOND IS YOUR COMPUTER OPERATING SYSTEM; AND THIRD, IF YOU USE YOUR HARDWARE WALLET, THERE'S A QUESTION: HOW DO YOU BELIEVE YOUR HARDWARE WALLET IS SAFE。
In addition, there has been a topic in the last two years: it is hoped that the application of block-chain-based platforms will do more in the real world, which also depends on hardware. So whatever we do, the hardware layer is important。
Xiaofu:RIGHT. NOT ONLY IS THERE A SECURITY PROBLEM AT THE ETHER AND L2 LEVELS, BUT IN THE CONTEXT OF THE SECOND LEVEL AGREEMENT OF THE ETHER, HARDWARE IS NEEDED TO ACCELERATE CERTAIN CALCULATIONS. AFTER ALL, HARDWARE ACCELERATION IS ONE OF THE CURRENT MEANS OF ADDRESSING PERFORMANCE PROBLEMS. PERHAPS BY NOW, HARDWARE IS ALSO NEEDED TO GUARANTEE SECURITY OR PROVIDE BETTER EFFICIENCY AND PERFORMANCE WHEN BLOCK CHAINS AND THE ETHERWOOD AS INFRASTRUCTURE ARE NEEDED TO SUPPORT MORE APPLICATIONS. THIS IS ALSO THE SUBJECT OF THE PREVIOUS FORUM。
There's a topic I've noticed you've been talking about, but it's not getting a lot of resonance, and I think it might be very important。
WE KNOW THAT THE THRESHOLDS FOR BLOCK CHAINS AND ETHER ARE STILL HIGH FOR C-END USERS. IT INCLUDES NOT JUST WALLETS, BUT ALSO SMART CONTRACTS, BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE HAS THE CAPACITY TO PREPARE A FULLY OPERATIONAL SMART CONTRACT. YOU HAVE ALSO BEEN REFERRING TO THE SIMPLIFICATION OF THE ETHER WORKSHOP, WHICH I UNDERSTAND IS TO LOWER THE THRESHOLD FOR ITS APPLICATION AND TO MAKE IT MORE EASILY ACCESSIBLE。
It reminds me of the history of computer development. The computer's initial operating system is the command line. Bill Gates did the DOS operating system, which is based on orders. If the current computer operating system is still command line, I believe that 90 per cent of the world's computer users cannot use it because it is extremely difficult to learn. A browser appeared later, followed by a graphic operating system such as Windows。
AS THE THRESHOLD IS LOWERED, COMPUTER PROCESSES ARE BECOMING SIMPLER AND MORE USERS. THE BIGGEST SIMPLIFICATION IS THE ARRIVAL OF MOBILE INTERNET AND THE EMERGENCE OF APP. WE KNOW THAT TWITTER IS AN EXTREMELY COMPLEX SYSTEM, BUT IT'S WRAPPED INTO AN APP THAT YOU CAN OPERATE WITH ONLY ONE FINGER. THAT IS, YOU CAN OPERATE A COMPUTER FUNCTION OR PROGRAM WITH ONE FINGER。
We certainly look forward to the gradual simplification, automation and intellectualization of the ETA so that more people can use it more easily with one finger. Would you like to begin with what you have mentioned, the envisaged simplification of the path and the ultimate goal of the Ethera
Vitalik Buterin:I think the word “simplified” has two meanings。
The first meaning could be an iPhone simplification. You have a cell phone, which looks very simple, and you press a button to know what it does, but there's a very, very complicated system behind the screen。
The second is to make the latter very complex system simpler。
actually, both are important. why is the second important? for if a system is too complex, it means that very few people can participate in the core development process. you can say that the system is theoretically trustless, but if the core of the system is very complex, and only 50 people know how it works, then people around the world still need to trust the 50 people. so, an over-complex system cannot be a system of trustless。
THE OTHER THING IS THE USER EXPERIENCE. I THINK THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE COMMAND LINE AND THE GUI. ONE DIFFERENCE IS THAT GUI IS MORE FRIENDLY TO ORDINARY USERS, BUT COMMAND LINES HAVE THEIR OWN ADVANTAGES. ONE OF THE IMPORTANT ADVANTAGES IS THAT 50 YEARS AGO, THERE WAS THIS ORDER AGEUnix PhilosophyI don't know. One of the many elements of the Unix philosophy is that we should do very simple procedures. A user operation may call many different programs at the same time. For example, the user's input is entered into the first program, the output of the first program becomes the input of the second program, and the output of the second program becomes the third input, which is the concept of “pipeline”。
The concept has one advantage. In the GUI era, there was much criticism or dissatisfaction, some called digital monopolies, digital feudalism. In the GUI, the natural result is you have a UI, which is controlled by a company, you live in a company's little universe, and your digital life is controlled by a company. On the contrary, the Unix philosophy has many different procedures, each of which is done by different companies and can be interoperable by order。
Now it's step three, that's AI. It's actually starting to get more attention to AI. Last year we formed the Kohaku team, a wallet team. The first test edition was released last month in EthCC, Kohaku, and they indicated that it would be released shortly. But we all think that the concept of the wallet can disappear in two years, and the future is AI. So we need to start thinking about the AI wallet and how to make it safer. We're also thinking more about the AI user interface。AI IS ALSO AN ORDER, BUT YOU CAN JUST TALK TO THE COMPUTER。
Xiaofu:In natural languages。
Vitalik Buterin:YES, IN THE NATURAL LANGUAGE. IN THE THIRD ERA, IT CAN BE SAID THAT THE ADVANTAGES OF THE FIRST TWO ARE SHARED: THE VIRTUES OF COMMAND-MAKING, THE ABILITY OF MANY PEOPLE AND DIFFERENT COMPANIES TO INTERACT WITH EACH OTHER IN DIFFERENT SMALL PROGRAMS, AND THE GOOD USER EXPERIENCE. IF WE DO WELL, WE CAN COMBINE THE MERITS OF THE COMMAND LINE WITH THE MERITS OF THE GUI. IF WE DO WELL, THE RESULTS WILL BE VERY GOOD, BUT WE NEED TO WORK。
Xiaofu:THE COMMAND LINE OPERATION IS A LARGE NUMBER OF COMPUTER PROGRAMS THAT CAN BE DEVELOPED FOR A LARGE NUMBER OF DEVELOPERS, AND APP IS A COMPANY THAT INTEGRATES EVERYTHING, ALL APPLICATIONS, INTO THIS APP. FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF CONSUMER WELFARE, IT IS CERTAINLY THE PROCESS DEVELOPED BY MANY DEVELOPERS THAT CAN BE EASILY USED BY CONSUMERS, WHICH IS THE PRACTICE OF MAXIMIZING CONSUMER WELFARE. IF THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE, IT WOULD HAVE TO BE SIMPLIFIED SO THAT IT COULD BE USED BY ALL, AND THEN BECOME AN APP. THERE ARE MANY OTHER DEVELOPERS BEHIND THE APP, BUT THEY ARE INTEGRATED ON A PLATFORM。
Now Vitalik looks at AI, and there is a possibility of a “repatriation” that goes back to ordering computer manipulation. Of course, the command line at that time was not what we had learned, but in the natural language, that is, if you say one word, the computer would mobilize the many programs that were behind you to help you accomplish your goal. Much is expected to be done with the help of AI through natural languages。
As I recall, when we spoke about simplifying the Taifeng, this topic was already being discussed in 2016 at the Shanghai Conference of the Global Developers of the Taifang (Devcon), such as tools or technical tools to simplify the development of smart contracts. I remember when two different technology development teams discussed formalization at Devcon in 2016 -- – Validation of all applications in the ultimatum, including a variety of smart contracts, in a formalized way, to find bugs and make them very perfect smart contracts. Now that AI is here, does AI, with formalization, make it possible for any individual who is not a computer engineer, even if he has no programming skills, to build a smart contract for one of his purposes or needs, and does not really have a bug that can be successfully run by hackers? In another perspective, the formalization process was discussed 10 years ago, and so far, if it were added to AI, would it make it possible for those present here, whether or not they have computer programming capabilities, to prepare their own smart contracts and to operate on the Ether House
Vitalik Buterin:YES, FORMALIZATION IS NOW VERY IMPORTANT. WRITING SMART CONTRACTS IS AN IMPORTANT PART. WE TALKED A LOT IN 2016, WHEN THE DAO ATTACK TOOK PLACE, AND PEOPLE REALIZED THE IMPORTANCE OF SMART CONTRACT SECURITY。
But this year..Claude MythosOut, a lot of people are particularly surprised, even scared. As I now understand it, Claude Mythos is certainly stronger than before AI, but what you say is somewhat exaggerated. Nor can we just look at Claude Mythos, the current trend — Claude Mythos is much better than one year ago, next year's AI will be much better than Claude Mythos, and 2029's AI's ability to look for all kinds of loopholes may be terrible. Now, I think the only way to get really safe codes, really without serious loopholes, is by using AI-plus formalization to validate them and add more. This is now almost possible because of AI, and necessary because of AI ' s ability to find loopholes。
Now, we're developing the next version of the Ether Workshop, and we're setting many goals for the next version of the PoS Consensus。
first, faster. the time for financial certainty has been reduced from 16 minutes to 16 seconds and 8 seconds even less。
Second, antiquantium. Since last year, everything that is being thought and developed has seen resistance as necessary。
Thirdly, it is more central and safer. One of the things they need to do now is to prove that much of the next version of the consensus is secure by formalizing itZero proof of technology, andRecursive STARKWaiting for a lot of complicated things。
IT WAS AGREED TWO YEARS AGO THAT FORMALIZING SUCH COMPLEX THINGS WAS COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE AND NEVER POSSIBLE, BUT THEY ARE NOW POSSIBLE BECAUSE AI IS DEVELOPING SO FAST. SO AI IS BECOMING AN INCREASINGLY IMPORTANT PART OF THE CORE DEVELOPMENT OF L1。
It was also important to write smart contracts, and recent hacking had become increasingly serious. In fact, the contracts on the chain have been fine in the last two years, and more problems have arisen in the UI and lower chain levels. AI can also help if you use AI, think about last year's Safety tool, the Safety tool is the UI tool. If everyone uses Local AI and Safety, that can't happen. If you do well and do right, AI can replace third partiesUI, IT CAN HELP WITH SECURITY, BUT AI HAS A LOT OF ITS OWN SECURITY PROBLEMS, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE THINKINGTest. IntelligentTHE NEXT UIVyperIt's the second writingProgram language (Solidity is first)I don't knowVyperNowSupporting formalization will also make the capacity of Solidity increasingly good. This tool is not perfect and cannot solve all problems immediately, but its capacity, coupled with that of AI, is indeed very strong。
Xiaofu:We have just discussed how formalization can empower everyone to write their own credible smart contracts. At the same time, you mentioned two topics I wanted to talk to you about: quantum computing andQuantum proofI don't know. We saw Google publish a paper of its own, and there's some comment that Google's paper points more to the risks than to the risksBitcoinAnd it's a sign algorithm. What do you think of this
I myself have asked some cipherists who think that they can crack the Bitcoin networkThe quantum calculations of such encryption algorithms are very, very difficult in themselves, as well as very difficult algorithms. But it's a foot taller, and it's a magic taller, and it's a very fast way to calculate the quantum. Seven or eight years ago, I visited some of China's most famous cipher scientists, who had a lot of money to study encryption algorithms for antiquator computation. Because the decryption of quantum computations is not limited to Cripto or Blockchain, the threat of global encryption algorithms is such that countries are investing a lot of money in developing antiquated encryption algorithms. For example, eight years ago I was exposed to the concept of a “gap code”, which gave me the impression that there was a balance between the two sides and that there was no one-sided phenomenon。
What do you know about quantum computation encryption? There is much discussion about quantum calculations, and there is much discussion about the threat to different algorithms, such as Taifung, Bitcoin, but I think there is less discussion about the progress of antiquantic encryption algorithms themselves。
By the way, I asked a very creative cipher that if there were a lot of accounts on the bitcoin network that could not moveWhat about thisWhat if someone does not respond in time and does not update their wallets? This would cause huge losses and shocks to the system as a whole and even make it untrustworthy. He said it's really nice to have an antiquated encryption algorithm superstitious to existing encryption algorithms. Of course, some performance and experience will be sacrificed, but those who cannot move can do so slowly, even after three years. Of course, this is the most “slugger” solution。
I'd like you to talk about quantum encryption from an antiquantic encryption algorithm。
Vitalik Buterin:In fact, antiquantic algorithms are a more mature topic. About 20 years ago, people knew that there were two types of coded techniques that were resistant to quantum. The first is based on Hashi, including many Hashi-based signature algorithms, and zkSNARK — the antiquantium zero knowledge that you now know is also based on Hashi. The second is based on a mathematical method that quantum computers can't crack. Now Lattice-based cryptoprophy is common, probably both。
HASHI-BASED SIGNATURES ARE POSSIBLE AND ZERO PROOF OF KNOWLEDGE IS POSSIBLE, BUT ENCRYPTION WITH A PUBLIC KEY PRIVATE KEY IS NOT POSSIBLE — PERHAPS 40 YEARS AGO MATHEMATICIANS PROVED THAT HASHI-BASED INABILITY TO DO SO. SO ANY ENCRYPTION OF PUBLIC AND PRIVATE KEYS, INCLUDING FHE, AND OTHER MORE COMPLEX OPERATIONS REQUIRE ALTERNATIVE APPROACHES。
The idea now in the ETA is more likely to promote pure algorithms based on Hashi, because we want to do more than just a quantum chain, but also an anti-AI chain. There are several hypotheses, such as AI, that make decryption algorithms stronger, including RSA and lattice-based algorithms. If there's only one kind of password against AI, it must be Hashi. Because Hashi has no mathematical structure at all, Hashi algorithms can be said to be based on some random assumption. Cryptologists would say that it is impossible to distinguish between Hashi ' s output from the Hashi function or real random numbers. If there's only one thing safe, it's Hash。
On L1, it is hoped that all Hashi-based algorithms will be used if possible, but these algorithms have one disadvantage: efficiency. The current ETA signature is based on an elliptical curve, with 65 bytes based on an elliptical curve, 2,000 bytes based on Hashi and between 0.6 and 3KB based on Lattice. ZK-SNARK may now be 500 bytes, Stark is proof of resistance, at least 300 KB or more. Efficiency issues need to be addressed。
We know there's a way to call it "aggregation." If a block requires a large number of signatures and certificates, the node of the manufacturing block can itself produce a 300 KB certificate (i.e. Stark) to prove the validity of all signatures and certificates. No matter how many transactions, however complex, need not contain all signatures in the block, but only a 300 KB Stark. Many of our projects are studying this approach, and there are more complex thinking in their application。
Xiaofu:Encryption algorithms that are resistant to quantum computation have developed over a long period of time, except that performance may be lacking in large-scale commerce. It is not that these algorithms are not or are not working at all, they are already available, but we need to upgrade performance. And that's why Vitalik has recently been concerned about smart hardware. Many algorithms can be accelerated by chips or other hardware to improve performance and efficiency and to bring it closer to meeting performance requirements in actual application scenarios。
The hot spot in recent days is DeFi's safety. DeFi grew up in the Ethers, and its main market share remains in the Ethers to date. DeFi has had some security incidents every year in the past. Once, we thought that the loophole had been filled, and the following year there would be new ones. What do you think Defi's safe? Is there any ultimate solution? It may take time, but are there some ultimate solutions to DeFi's security? Because DeFi is central to the Etherwood, block chains and encrypted finance。
Despite the large risk events on DeFi these days, hundreds of millions of dollars were stolen. I have also asked cipherists, who say that using zero-knowledge proof (ZK) to build cross-chain bridges, such methods can now better address the interoperability of assets between different chains. There are already solutions, and zero knowledge has proved to be an important part. With regard to the ultimate solution to DeFi's security, what is its prospect at this stage? Please talk about this。
Vitalik Buterin:DeFi's security is many parts. Technically, we know how to be safer, and there is one more thing about which agreements are willing to be safer. In the AI era, if you want to make a security code, the security code will be much more capable than before, so the security code may be safer, but the normal code will become less secure. Why? Because AI makes it easy for people to write 10,000 lines of code, you think you write a lot of things in an hour, and it looks great, but it's not safe, you can't see the unsafe places. Security is not just a technical capability; it is also an option。
I also have a point: a lot of new chains have come out recently, including Solana, and Tempo. In this case, what is the role of the Ether House? I think the Ether House needs to do what only Ether House can do. What can the Ether House do? It's safe. First, the ETA network has thousands or even tens of thousands of nodes around the globe. Second, there are five completely independent different clients. So even if a client had problems, the entire network could still operate. Maybe you remember a lot of DOS attacks in Devcon, Shanghai, 10 years ago. That attack was made possible by the fact that the attackers had exploited the leaks in the memory of the Geth client in dealing with specific codes, mainly in connection with the Gas billing mechanism。Then we'll all changeParity's client, and Parity's fine; next time, if Parity gets attacked, Gerth can top it。So there are a lot of safety-related advantages to the network and the technology。
I think the ETA L1 DeFi ecology should also make a choice. Our transition target is Low-risk DeFi, which is decentralised and safe. No matter what happens, no matter what company collapses, no matter who is hacked, your assets or your security. I think it's possible. That is the choice, and we need to choose to do so。
Xiaofu:As Vitalik said earlier, security is not just a technical issue, but also a matter of will — are you willing to write a very safe procedure, the first level. On the second floor, AI can bring a lot of security, but now the programmers have a sentence for "Death Decode," and AI has created so many codes that you have no idea who's right or wrong. Of course, there's a lot of bugs that can be checked with AI to prevent a loophole on DeFi。
MOREOVER, THE ETA HAS STRESSED THAT IF THE SO-CALLED BLOCK CHAINS ARE RECOGNIZED AS IMPOSSIBLE TO TRIANGULATE (DECENTERIZATION, SAFETY, PERFORMANCE), WHILE DEVELOPING TWO-TIER AGREEMENTS SUCH AS L1, L2, ETA L1 EMPHASIZES ONLY DECENTRIZATION AND SAFETY AND DOES NOT ATTEMPT TO IMPROVE PERFORMANCE BY OTHER MEANS. IT WAS NOT INTENDED TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF TRANSACTIONS PER SECOND, BECAUSE THE TRIANGLE HAD NOT SO FAR FOUND A PERFECT SOLUTION. THE PROBLEM OF PERFORMANCE IS THEREFORE LEFT TO THE SECOND TIER, WHERE THE APPLICATION SCENE IS TO BE RESOLVED, AND THE ETHER WORKSHOP ITSELF IS SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR CENTRALIZATION AND SAFETY。
I have asked cipherists to prove with zero knowledge that they have built the bridge. At least so far, the cross-chain asset interoperability problems encountered by DeFi have proved to be a good solution with zero knowledge。
Quantum and resistance calculations are discussed earlier, which is a matter of safety. So zero proof of knowledge, as well as the complete equivalent encryption discussed by developers on Devcon in Shanghai in 2016 — zero proof of knowledge and the equivalent encryption are both privacy protection techniques. Of course, the two focus slightly: zero-knowledge proves that something is true and the numbers are accurate after encryption, and identical encryption allows others to calculate 100 per cent of the results after encryption. One focuses on proof, one focuses on calculation, but it is done in secret。
And when we did the Ether Workshop, HashKey, including HashKey, had a HashKey Chain, the second floor of the Taifeng. There is a strong need for privacy when we recommend ETA block-chain solutions to institutions that have a strong demand for compliance and privacy protection. Of course, data on the public chain is 100 per cent unlicensed, which is precisely one of the characteristics of the block chain. However, there is a strong need for privacy protection for those who use the ETA, which requires the use of zero-knowledge certification, generic encryption, privacy protection and privacy computing techniques. Zero-knowledge proves that we have spoken for 10 years, and for 10 years, we have also spoken of universal encryption. Are these technological developments able to adapt to the application-oriented needs of the Etherak? Is it possible to adapt to commercial applications on a large scale? What stage have we reached? Waiting for some time to come
Vitalik Buterin:I THINK ZERO IS MORE MATURE NOW, AND THERE'S A LOT OF ZEROING. IT TOOK US 10 YEARS TO DEVELOP A LOT OF TOOLS, AND NOW IT'S EASY TO ADD AI. FHE MAY BE A LITTLE BEHIND ZK, BUT IT IS STILL GROWING FAST, AND MORE AND MORE APPLICATIONS HAVE RECENTLY STARTED USING FHE。
ZK and FHE have different advantages and disadvantages. The advantage of ZK is that there is no need for trust. You don't need to trust anyone. Validation is. The weakness of the FHE in terms of trust is that there is always a need for a private key to be decrypted, that there is always a need for a person and a company to have a private key, and that it is only through him that you can get the FHE calculations. There is no way you can limit them to saying, "You can only get the results of this calculation, not the results of another calculation," which is FHE's fault. However, the FHE has the advantage of calculating or combining data from different users. ZK is a user that can calculate the calculation using its own private information, validates the calculation results and then sends the certificate to another person or to the chain. FHE has other features。
The third technique, called "obfuscation " , could theoretically combine the characteristics of ZK and FHE, but is now very slow and largely impossible. Theoretically, it is known how to do it, but it actually turns out that it takes one year to run, so it is still a research field. If I can do that, I think it'll be great. But now the combination of ZK and FHE can be done well。
Xiaofu:THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE INTEGRATION OF BLOCK CHAINS AND AI, AS ANY APPLICATION OF AI INVOLVES CALCULATION. BUT IF IT'S ONLY AI CALCULATIONS, THERE'S A PROBLEM: IF IT'S NOT ENCRYPTED, I'M SURE IT'S GOING TO BE RELATIVELY SLOW. AI AND SEPARATE BLOCK CHAINS, AND DATA ARE OPEN AND TRANSPARENT TO USERS。
YESTERDAY I CITED A CASE IN POINT: HOSPITAL MEDICAL DATA ARE EXTREMELY VALUABLE, BUT THE REQUIREMENTS FOR PRIVACY PROTECTION ARE ALSO HIGHEST. IT IS CLEAR THAT THE AI RESEARCH METHODOLOGY, IF USED WITH HOSPITAL DATA, HAS GREATLY IMPROVED HUMAN WELL-BEING. IF PRIVACY PROTECTION IS NOT ADDRESSED AND CAN'T BE COUNTED IN ENCRYPTION, I'M SURE ALL HOSPITALS ARE AFRAID TO OPEN THESE DATA TO R & D PEOPLE. - DRUG RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT AND MEDICAL PROGRAMME DEVELOPMENT。
At the same time, encryption is certainly possible, e.g. simultaneous encryption, ZK, zero proof of knowledge. But if it's a combination of AI+ private computing techniques, you're actually Web2 business model: you need to talk to this hospital, you need to negotiate, sign agreements, get permission, and pay. I believe that this is very difficult for hospitals to expand from the perspective of the Token factory. But if we add the block chain, the AI+ Privacy + Block Chain, and transform it into a platform like Bitcoin, the Ethernet, without permission and trust, all data from the hospital becomes AI Token. Since it's AI Token, using the block chain method, no one needs permission, no trust to call it. You consume the hospital Token, you pay the hospital, which doesn't need to know who it is. In this way, the commercial boundary will be significantly expanded from the perspective of the “Token Factory”. These three technologies, in my view, need to be combined to create great commercial value。
THE NEXT TOPIC I'D LIKE TO ASK IS THE L2 OF THE ETHER. L1 AND L2 ARE THE IMPOSSIBLE TRIANGLE SOLUTION. I THINK IT'S NOT POSSIBLE FOR A TRIANGLE TO BE A MATHEMATICAL PROBLEM, AND CHALLENGING A MATHEMATICALLY VALIDATED TRIANGLE IS EXTREMELY TECHNICAL. HOWEVER, THE PROBLEM WAS NOT INEXPLICABLE, SINCE IT LEFT THE ISSUE OF PERFORMANCE TO ANOTHER LEVEL. WHAT ARE YOUR VIEWS ON THE FUTURE DEVELOPMENT OF L2 AND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN L1 AND L2? WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE BEST RELATIONSHIP IN THE FUTURE
Vitalik Buterin:THANK YOU, MR. SHAW, FOR MENTIONING A LOT OF IMPORTANT TOPICS. MEDICAL TREATMENT AND FHE TOPICS ARE PARTICULARLY INTERESTING。
WE HAVE RECENTLY HAD A PROJECT THAT COMBINES ALMOST EVERYTHING THAT HAS JUST BEEN SAID. THE PROJECT IS A DEVICE TO SEE AIR QUALITY INDICATORS. IN FACT, AIR QUALITY DATA IS VERY PROBLEMATIC: THESE DATA ALLOW US TO KNOW WHEN SOMEONE IS IN A ROOM, WHEN SOMEONE IS NOT, WHO IS THERE AND WHAT HE IS DOING, MUCH, INCLUDING THROUGH AI. SO WHAT WE DO IS TAKE THE DATA DIRECTLY ON THE EQUIPMENT, HARDWARE, ENCRYPT THE INFORMATION THROUGH THE FHE, AND ADD ZK. YOU NEED TO KNOW WHEN THE INFORMATION CAME FROM GOOD HARDWARE. THROUGH FHE, THE CONTENT OF INFORMATION CAN BE PROTECTED, INFORMATION SENT TO THE SERVER, WHERE SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH CAN BE DONE TO GUIDE THE IMPROVEMENT OF AIR QUALITY AND HUMAN HEALTH INFORMATION. THIS REQUIRES BOTH ZK, FHE AND SECURITY HARDWARE, AS WELL AS SMALL AND HIGH PERFORMANCE HARDWARE. SO IT'S A MATTER OF ENCRYPTION, IT'S A MATTER OF HARDWARE, IT'S A MATTER OF MEDICINE, IT'S A MATTER OF APPLICATION — EVERY LEVEL. THE PROJECT WE'RE DOING IS MORE INTERESTING。
AI and FHE are also interesting. If we can get LLM's reasoning into FHE or zero proof of knowledge, we can expand the application we can do. If the L1 reasoning is FHE, it means your mobile phone, Iot equipment, computers, all the equipment can use the most powerful models safely. LLM proof can be used, for example, to write an intelligent contract, which can theoretically be written in a natural language. The content of certain articles can be proved, and something happens according to the LLM ruling, and then you can issue some currency to an account. We all know that several companies are working very hard to optimize AI's FHE and AI's ZK, and I particularly hope that they will succeed。
With regard to L1 and L2, there has been a relatively large change in the last two years: the Taifung L1 is now willing to expand more than before. Why? With ZK technology now in place, it is finally possible to separate “manufacturing block calculations” from “certification block calculations”. So for the first time, we rethinked the impossible triangle, which does not have the capacity to implement and validate separately through ZK, so there are now plans to raise the gas ceiling more this year than next year. But there's still a lot I can't do。
The ideal L2 is not "L1 plus more scaling" and it's more boring to be a bigger EVM. What is more interesting is to start thinking about what is needed for applications -- what is not possible for L1 to do with applications? What other applications need but L1 does not provide? You can do those services, that's L2. I think there's gonna be a lot of new L2, and they're gonna be completely different from the old L2, and they're not gonna do a bigger version of the EVM. Now that L2 is already moving in this direction, Arbitrum has been saying, “We are not just EVM” for a long time, starting to say that. If they succeed in this path, it's the best way for Ether and them。
Xiaofu:ON THE ONE HAND, THE IMPOSSIBLE TRIANGLE OF THE BLOCK CHAIN, WITH THE NEW TECHNOLOGIES OF ZK, CAN ALSO RAISE SIGNIFICANTLY THE PERFORMANCE OF THE ESPOUSE ITSELF, WHICH IS THE FOUNDATION OF L1, IN MODERN TECHNOLOGY, AND IT IS UNLIKELY THAT THE WATER LEVEL OF THE TRIANGLE MAY RISE GRADUALLY. OF COURSE, THE SAME CAN BE SAID FOR DECENTRIZATION AND SAFETY IF PERFORMANCE INCREASES, EXCEPT THAT NEW TECHNOLOGIES CAN SOLVE PROBLEMS THAT ARE BETTER THAN THEY USED TO BE, THE FIRST LEVEL. THE SECOND LEVEL, THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN L1 AND L2: L2 SHOULD BE MORE APPLIED-ORIENTED, RATHER THAN DOING WHAT L1 HAS DONE, AND THERE IS NO NEED TO REPEAT THE WHEEL AND NOT NECESSARILY COST-EFFECTIVE COMMERCIALLY. APPLICATIONS-ORIENTED, WITH DIFFERENT APPLICATIONS WITH DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALIZED NEEDS, MAY NOT BE CONSIDERED BY L1 BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO PERSONALIZED. INDIVIDUALIZED NEEDS NEED TO BE CONSIDERED AND ADDRESSED BY L2, INCLUDING PERFORMANCE NEEDS. SOME APPLICATIONS HAVE HIGHER PERFORMANCE REQUIREMENTS THAN L1 CAN MEET, SO L2 CAN DO SO. I TOTALLY AGREE。
I have learned that the Etherdorf Foundation updated its mission, vision, values about two months ago. All of you are fans of the Ethera, and the new mission, vision and values of the Ithera Foundation may not be too well known to the outside world. Why should the Etherwood Foundation update its mission, vision, values in the near future? Following this update, what kind of future Etherleaf Foundation does Ethera Foundation want to be
Vitalik Buterin:IN THE LAST TWO YEARS, THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF VERY SIGNIFICANT CHANGES BOTH WITHIN AND OUTSIDE OF THE BLOCK CHAIN ECOLOGY. FIRST, AI HAS BROUGHT US MANY CHANGES. IN BLOCK CHAIN ECOLOGY, MANY NEW CHAINS HAVE EMERGED, MANY NEW APPLICATIONS HAVE EMERGED AND MANY APPLICATIONS HAVE BEGUN TO MOVE IN A MORE CENTRAL DIRECTION。
We see a lot of mainstream adoptions. But in the ETA ecology, one thing needs to be emphasized: we should do what only ETA can do. If going to the hub community is just doing what companies can do better, then we cannot pretend to be a HFT company, to pretend to be a bank, to pretend to be a central exchange。
There are two things to distinguish between efficiency and decentrization, security, privacy and lack of trust. The first point can be said to be the virtue of helping everyone in the ordinary world. Second, in many cases it may be considered useless -- why think about it? But it is still necessary at the most critical moment, and only bitcoin and Ethera can do it. It is difficult for other chains to allow a technology development team to develop five truly independent teams, which is totally impossible. So, we should put more emphasis on our strengths — only the chain of blocks that the Ether House can do。
L2 CAN BE EFFICIENT, APPLICATION CAN BE EFFICIENT, AND L1 SHOULD PROVIDE SOMETHING THAT CAN BE PROVIDED ONLY BY THE TAIFUNG L1. AND YET, FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF WHAT THE APPLICATION AND THE CHAIN OF BLOCKS BRINGS TO THE WORLD, IT IS TRUE THAT THE L1 OF BITCOIN AND THE ETHER MILL DO NOT TALK TO YOU ABOUT EFFICIENCY. IF YOU WANT TO BE EFFICIENT, AI CAN NOW BE VERY EFFICIENT AND CENTRAL FINANCE CAN BE GREATLY ENHANCED. A BLOCK CHAIN CAN HELPWhat are we doing? I can give a more philosophical example. In the EF file, we're talking about a lot of philosophyPresentAnti-censorship, catch, open sourcePrivacySecurityI'm sorryCROPS PRINCIPLES)more references were also made to soft sovereignty。
You can think about the car 100 years ago. You buy a car, it's yours. You don't text the server every second. A 100-year-old car doesn't have to pay the company $100 a month, and if you don't pay, you won't be able to serve. You buy a car, it's yours, you can fix it, you can change it, you can figure out how it works, you can wrap everything up. In this high-tech age, it's very easy to lose these things. For each application, the power of the user is limited. Many times, if a company collapses, your account may not exist, much of your information is deleted and the company doesn't know where it went。
so that's how the concept is: how can we make a high-tech future, but it also preserves the virtues of a hundred years ago — technology that users can control, they can understand, they can trust。
WE WOULD LIKE TO EMPHASIZE AGAIN THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE TAIFENG, INCLUDING AT THE PROTOCOL LEVEL, AT THE APPLICATION LEVEL, AND BEYOND ITS ECOLOGY. IN FACT, WHEN WE TALK TO OPEN-SOURCE HARDWARE PEOPLE, WE FIND THAT THEY THINK EXACTLY THE SAME WAY MANY TIMES. THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BE COMPLETELY LOCAL, AND THEY'RE LIKE, "YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT WITH OR WITHOUT THE INTERNET, WHATEVER HAPPENS."。
We hope that, starting at these points, these advantages will not be lost by improving the Ether Workshop agreement and its applied ecology. We cannot afford to lose these in the process of evolution and optimization. If it is lost, the whole Ether Workshop will be meaningless — we have a centralized, less efficient version。
We want every layer of ecology built. The advantages of doing so are likely to be totally invisible on the first day, possibly in the first year and possibly not in 10 years. But there's always a crisis, and there's always three things that you think won't happen at the same time. Hope your accounts and assets are secure on the Ether's chain and in DeFi。
Xiaofu:TWO MONTHS AGO, THE TAIFENG FOUNDATION UPDATED ITS VISION, MISSION, VALUES. THE FIRST IS, OF COURSE, A REPOSITIONING STRATEGY THAT FOCUSES ON WHAT IT SHOULD DO AND WHAT IT DOES BEST. AT THE SAME TIME, AND IN RESPONSE TO THE PROGRESS MADE TOWARDS AI AND DIGITIZATION, THE EPISCOPAL FOUNDATION'S ORIGINAL INTENTION WAS TO FAVOUR GREATER EQUITY BETWEEN EFFICIENCY AND EQUITY, TO ALLOW EACH PERSON TO MANAGE HIS OR HER OWN ASSETS INDEPENDENTLY, TO HAVE GREATER AUTONOMY OVER HIS OR HER OWN ASSETS AND TO MANAGE HIS OR HER ASSETS MORE EFFECTIVELY THAN TO BECOME AN “EFFICIENCY MACHINE”。
Efficiency is done by others, but decentrization, safety and autonomy are the ones to be upheld by the Taifeng. Repositioning, on the one hand, and holding back to its own beginnings and places of departure, on the other. Although the Etherak Foundation has so far been ten years, it must be kept up to date, it must be updated, and the focus must be more focused — this is the most important aspect of updating its own values this time。
THE LAST QUESTION: THE EAG WAS AN INITIATIVE THAT WAS PROPOSED BY BOTH OF US IN SINGAPORE LAST YEAR AND WHICH YOU VERY MUCH SUPPORT. WHAT ARE YOUR INTENTIONS AND PROPOSALS FOR THE EAG ETHER'S APPLIED ALLIANCE
Vitalik Buterin:The Etherdorf Foundation also has a point to make: its role is limited, there are things we can do and there are things we cannot do — not our profession. Maybe it's not the same idea as the foundation it was 10 years ago。
TEN YEARS AGO, THE FOUNDATION HAD TO BE AT THE HEART OF THE ETHER WORKSHOP, WHICH HAD NOTHING ELSE TO OFFER. THERE'S A LOT OF OTHER THINGS IN THE ETHER HOUSE, APPLICATIONS, CLIENT TEAMS, COMPANIES. NOW IS THE BEST TIME FOR THE FOUNDATION TO DO APPLICATION-LEVEL RESEARCH ON L1 DEVELOPMENT, CORE AUTONOMY, SECURITY AND PRIVACY, BUT IT ALSO MEANS THAT THE SUCCESS OF THE TAICHA ECOLOGY REQUIRES OTHERS TO DO THINGS THAT WE CANNOT。
I'VE BEEN VERY HAPPY WITH THE ZONE CHAIN'S SUPPORT FOR THE ETHERAN ECOLOGY FOR OVER A DECADE. IT IS HOPED THAT THE EAG WILL DO MORE OF WHAT THE FOUNDATION ITSELF DOES NOT WANT TO DO, BUT WHAT THE ECOLOGY NEEDS TO DO, INCLUDING MANY OF THE APPLICATIONS THAT ARE RELEVANT, THAT CONNECT THE TRADITIONAL WORLD TO THE WORLD OF BLOCK CHAINS, AND THAT ARE APPLIED BY A WIDE RANGE OF ENTERPRISES, TO DO ECOLOGICAL RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT GLOBALLY. THESE ARE IMPORTANT. I'M GLAD YOU PUT FORWARD YOUR IDEAS AND STARTED DOING SO YOURSELF. EAG IS EXPECTED TO SUCCEED, AND IT IS HOPED THAT THERE WILL BE MORE OTHER TEAMS AND COMPANIES IN THE ETA ECOLOGY WHO CAN LEARN FROM YOU, FORM MORE INDEPENDENT ETA COMMUNITY ORGANIZATIONS, CHOOSE WHAT THEY ARE GOOD AT, WANT TO DO, AND MAKE THEIR OWN DIFFERENT ETA ECOLOGY. IN THIS WAY, WE CAN ALL WORK TOGETHER AND SUCCEED TOGETHER。
Xiaofu:Thank you, Vitalik, and thank you all for staying here. This year ' s dialogue has come to an end and we look forward to another opportunity for dialogue with Vitalik next year. Thank you
